It's a Michael Moore movie, so the film making will be technically excellent, the politics will be leftist, the arguments will be tenuous, and the tactics will be questionable. That's pretty much all you need to know.
Look, I've defended Moore before, and I tend to be sympathetic to leftist causes. And he makes some excellent points here. The comparisons of modern America to the declining years of ancient Rome are apt, at least on the surface. And he gets some juicy sound bites from a pro-capitalist who argues that capitalism is better than democracy. To extend the metaphor, democracy might sometimes be two wolves and one sheep deciding what's for dinner, but capitalism is often two wolves vs. a hundred sheep and the wolves still decide because they control the means of production.
He also gets some great sound bites from religious figures who claim that capitalism is inherently evil (his re-dubbing of a scene where Jesus will only heal a cripple if he pays for the costs out of pocket is pretty funny), although at the same time he sort of goes off the rails with a radical "we must completely destroy capitalism" message.
Moore goes on to suggest that capitalism must be replaced by something else, and that something should be...democracy. I guess he didn't have the balls to say he really wants socialism/communism. Although he does gleefully let slip that a recent poll suggests opposition to socialism/support for capitalism in the U.S. is at an all-time low, and he does play a swingin' version of Los Internacionales over the end credits. Anyone with eyes even a little bit open will realize what he really wants. And again, I'm not unsympathetic I just wouldn't go as far as Moore.
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Yeah, Michael Moore makes very entertaining movies, not documentaries, mind you, but entertaining movies. Although main stream Hollywood seems to have forgotten what a documentary is supposed to be and gives him documentary awards, he lacks the objectivity that a good documentary is supposed to have, and this movie is no exception.
Listen he makes good points, but kind of like Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" he also makes common sense points and is a bit of a hypocrite. He is a millionaire that became a millionaire a long time ago and does not have the problems personally that he highlights in his movies. He's not even from Flint actually! He refuses interviews with people that don't agree with him unless he can exploit them. Still he helps dumb people understand that we have some serious issues, kind of like Al Gore did with global warming before he jumped in his private jet to go run some heavy equipment on one of his ranches. In general I am more sympathetic to leftist views, but I'm not an idiot either. Moore always paints the picture with health care, for example, that greedy people just want to make money off of health care. While this is true in America, for the most part, he never really discusses the fact that Americans are dumber, lazier, and fatter than ever and that has led to a lot of our health care crisis. I want people to have health care from a moral standpoint, but I am sick of people feeling they should be able to treat their bodies however they want and still get their health care paid for, for example. At any rate, yeah, he needs to grow a pair and just admit that he's a socialist already. On a final note I watched an excellent counter movie, streamable on Netflix btw, called "Michael Moore Hates America" which I thought was actually pretty good. Personally I don't think Moore hates America, just Americans. The production value is excellent, and Moore is a talented film maker I just wish we could put a "not really a documentary" warning label on most of his work.
Hey baceman,
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for a semantic point. When you say that Michael Moore's movies are not documentaries, you're taking a very narrow (and very recent) view of what documentaries are supposed to be--i.e., long-form journalism. Documentaries don't have to be objective, they don't even have to be all that true.
The movie widely regarded as the first documentary feature is NANOOK OF THE NORTH. An ordinary day in the life of an Eskimo--shot entirely on a stage in Los Angeles. If I can find it, I'm going to play THE HELLSTROM CHRONICLE for you. One of my favorite documentaries, it's about insects and is narrated by a Dr. David Hellstrom. Dr. Hellstrom has been studying insects his whole life and is convinced of two things--1) there's a war brewing between bugs and humans for supremacy of the planet, and 2) humans are doomed to lose. There is no Dr. Hellstrom, he's an actor (he plays the coach in AMERICAN PIE).
I could go on. In the 40's and 50's the Best Documentary Oscar was typically won by military training films because those were the only ones made. Questionable whether they would be "documentaries" by today's standards.
Anyway, your points are all valid regarding why Michael Moore's films are BAD, but by the standards of what has counted as a documentary in the past, they'd still count. Again, just a semantic point.
Fair enough, historically the industry has obviously awarded non-objective documentaries with many awards. That said it's kind of like the whole "if everyone jumped off of a bridge concept." Just because Hollywood says it's ok to make non-objective documentaries, and has for a long time, doesn't make it a good idea.
Also, this Dr. Hellstrom thing is very interesting to me since I just read Frank Herbert's "Hellstrom's Hive." It is about a society of people that try to live like insects do over hundreds of years before they have to confront our "modern society." I still prefer the Dune books, but this one is pretty good especially if you are into insects, believe we are at war with them, or just want to read a good Sci-Fi novel that takes place on Earth. Still I doubt the name of the character in the book is a mistake given the type of documentaries you have mentioned.
That's it, I'm getting THE HELLSTROM CHRONICLE for the WFFF. BTW, I was mistaken, the character isn't Dr. David Hellstrom, it's Dr. Nils Hellstrom. Whatever.
Oh I love the "Watch Freaky Filthy Films" festival, or do you mean something else by WFFF?
WFFF = Wiener Family Film Festival, but I like Watch Freaky Films Festival, too.
Oh I came up with my new movie category to put films like Michael Moore films into. It's called "opinion films." Making this separation would allow well done, objective, documentaries like "Stupidity" (awesome btw, and streamable on Netflix), to be called documentaries and things like this movie to be called opinion films since they are.
Ok, so Jason showed me "The Hellstrom Chronicles" on vacation. I grudgingly had to admit that it was technically a documentary. I think this admission made me more depressed, but I also think that it made me have to admit that I was wrong (technically anyway). Jason's definition of a documentary is more accurate than mine. Still, super opinionated documentaries leave a bad taste in my mouth. I guess the truth is that I prefer documentaries that are done in a more journalistic style and try to remain unbiased, as much as possible anyway. Still, Jason can't hope to beat me in Tiger Woods PGA Tour 09, even with all of Tiger's mistresses backing him up. So that's something. Also, I fixed my Atari 7800 so there Jason, beat that. You'd have to fix at least an Atari Jaguar to compete :). What the last part of this commentary has to do with movies = nothing. For everything else there's bullshit card.
So you admit I'm technically right, the best kind of right!
Of course, this doesn't change your points about why Michael Moore movies are bad, just that it is semantically correct to call them documentaries. BTW, I don't remember if I told you I met the producer of MICHAEL MOORE HATES AMERICA (not the director/star, but a producer who was at a festival with his film YOUR MOMMY KILLS ANIMALS). Nice guy, and the movie is pretty good. A much better expose on exactly the scummy techniques Moore uses is MANUFACTURING DISSENT (not CONSENT, the Noam Chomsky film).
In any case, I'm sure I couldn't beat you in fixing Ataris or in video golf, but I would like a chance to be backed up by all of Tiger's mistresses. BTW, best line ever on Tiger: http://twitter.com/shitmydadsays/status/6667317972
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